Let's Talk About Baseball!!!

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Re: Let's Talk About Baseball!!!

Postby Harpua » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:15 pm

El Bastarde wrote:
I found myself cursing Maddon's name, over and over.

You should apologize. You shouldn't ever curse the name of a guy who single-handedly saved your franchise.



Theo Epstein / Jed Hoyer / Jason McLeod might have had something to do with the saving of the franchise. ;)

Joe Maddon is a great locker room manager. He is a zen master. Great at keeping players' egos in check and heads in the game. His in game decisions are baffling at time and indefensible at others. I acknowledge his contribution to ending the drought, and they definitely don't get there without him, but they won the World Series in spite of him.

It just seems like he saw what Terry Franconia did with his bullpen last year, and decided to emulate that, despite the fact that The 2017 Cubs pitching staff is built nothing like the 2016 Indians'. When you don't have a pen, and have reasonably strong starters, you should stick with the starters longer, to avoid handing the game over to a Carl Edwards Jr or a Pedro Strop.
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Re: Let's Talk About Baseball!!!

Postby El Bastarde » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:56 pm

Theo Epstein / Jed Hoyer / Jason McLeod might have had something to do with the saving of the franchise.

It was like night and day when Maddon showed up. That's not a GM. I saw Jim Leyland show up here in Detroit in 2006 and do the exact same thing with mostly the same roster that was garbage the year before. Some managers matter and Maddon does. Don't blow that guy off. Nothing bugs me more than fans doing the "What have you done for me lately?" thing with a successful manager or coach. Every other team in the Majors would kill to have Maddon. Be happy, please.

His in game decisions are baffling at time and indefensible at others.

You can say this about literally every manager. They all stick with tradition too much, pull pitchers too quick and have weird quirks we may not like. Every one of them has issues like this. Dude gets results.

but they won the World Series in spite of him.

Revisionist history garbage. You wouldn't have sniffed it without him. Cubs fans really are insane. First World Series in a hundred years and the dude can't get any credit. And Cubs fans wonder why the rest of the country hates them.
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Re: Let's Talk About Baseball!!!

Postby Harpua » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:17 pm

It was night and day when Maddon showed up because with him came Lester, Hendricks, Bryant, Russell, Zobrist, Schwarber, Arrieta, Fowler and Montero. Rizzo was the only everyday position player he inherited. Assembling that team, and "Fixing" Arrieta was what got them to the NLCS in 3 consecutive years.

I also disagree that it is revisionist, because this isn't a narrative that people started hearing after the fact. This is what was being said in Chicago during games 6 and 7. His pitching changes were questionable during the elimination games and especially game 7. Yes they won. Single happiest moment of my life. But had it not rained... I imagine Cubs fans would talk about him the same way we talk about Dusty Baker and Leon Durham.

I 100% agree with you though on us Cubs fans being insane though. Black cats, billygoats, and Bartman scapegoating rather than placing the blame on upper management. 108 years of futility followed immediately by "what have you done for me lately". I do think Maddon is a top 5 manager and I would rather have him than most other managers.
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Re: Let's Talk About Baseball!!!

Postby El Bastarde » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:12 pm

Assembling that team, and "Fixing" Arrieta was what got them to the NLCS in 3 consecutive years.

Yup, and the manager and his staff is a huge part of that. To pretend he has nothing to do with it is silly. And there's no way you get a guy like Zobrist if Maddon hadn't coached him for years. And, of course, Theo matters too. But to pretend they win "despite" him is laughable and really not appreciative at all.

I also disagree that it is revisionist, because this isn't a narrative that people started hearing after the fact. This is what was being said in Chicago during games 6 and 7.

I get this but "people" complaining about a manager is nothing new and every fanbase in every city bitches about moves the manager makes no matter how successful they are. Every baseball fans thinks they're smarter than the manager and know what's best for the team. This doesn't mean the manager is ACTUALLY bad. That's just how baseball works.

So, no, people complaining about a few moves a manager makes is not some affirmation. People whined about Leyland his entire time in Detroit and all he did was turn the team around, win multiple divisions and have a few World Series runs. Baseball fans whine. It's what they do.

I'll agree Theo deserves a lot of credit too though.

By the way, Dodgers just rolling now. Kinda makes sense. It didn't make a difference in the end but walking Yu Darvish was pretty brutal.
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Re: Let's Talk About Baseball!!!

Postby Harpua » Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:24 pm

Ugh... You're telling me.

A bit disappointed in their NLCS performance, but not surprised. The Dodgers are an outstanding team. Where is Jason Hayward and his super-powered speeches? The Cubs are one good speech away from winning this thing.
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Re: Let's Talk About Baseball!!!

Postby El Bastarde » Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:41 pm

Where is Jason Hayward and his super-powered speeches?

I don't get it. He's hitting around .125 which was the same as his hitting numbers last year.

And, on the subject, here's a good article on how basically all of the managers in this postseason are just all collectively blowing it with their bullpen. Apparently no one can get this right. Though, in Maddon's case, it doesn't help when everyone on the team collectively forgets how to throw strikes.

https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2017/10/1 ... y-francona
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Re: Let's Talk About Baseball!!!

Postby Harpua » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:44 pm

El Bastarde wrote:Where is Jason Hayward and his super-powered speeches?

I don't get it. He's hitting around .125 which was the same as his hitting numbers last year.


https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2017/10/1 ... y-francona


I am in no way blaming Hayward for their woes. Baez, Contreras, Rizzo, and Bryant are all far more important bats in that lineup, and are all playing like shit. The joke was about his rain delay locker room speech that is now a key piece of The Cubs' rich mythos.

I will definitely read that article.
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Re: Let's Talk About Baseball!!!

Postby Harpua » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:00 pm

Harpua wrote:
El Bastarde wrote: Baez, Contreras, Rizzo, and Bryant are all far more important bats in that lineup, and are all playing like shit.


And of course the first two player I listed are the heroes from game 4.
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Re: Let's Talk About Baseball!!!

Postby El Bastarde » Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:06 pm

Still nothing but home runs and it felt like they really just hung on for dear life in those last two innings. Doesn't bode well looking ahead but you never know.
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Re: Let's Talk About Baseball!!!

Postby Harpua » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:11 pm

Yankees fired Girardi ?! :think: :crazy:
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Re: Let's Talk About Baseball!!!

Postby y0n » Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:52 pm

What a game last night!
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Re: Let's Talk About Baseball!!!

Postby El Bastarde » Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:57 pm

Yankees fired Girardi ?! :think: :crazy:

I know. I can't even use the "What have you done for me lately?" cliche since all he did lately was greatly overachieve with what folks thought was still an up-and-coming team. I don't get it at all.

What a game last night!

It's funny...I nodded off in the 10th right after Puig hit the home run to make it 5-4 Astros. Then I wake up the next morning and head the Astros won by 1 in extra innings and assumed I missed nothing. Wasn't until later that I realized they had another inning after that.

I will say I don't get these managers who manage one way for 162 then turn into these overreactionary basket cases in the playoffs. Rich Hill gone after 6? Pinch-hitting for Verlander with two outs and no one on? Pitching their closer for six outs? They never do this stuff in the regular season and suddenly it's supposed to work now? Just seems crazy with the super-tight leashes on these pitchers...feels like some of them aren't allowed to ever make a mistake.
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Re: Let's Talk About Baseball!!!

Postby y0n » Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:03 pm

^That decision to pull Hill after 4 (!) innings could have detrimental effects for the rest of the series.
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Re: Let's Talk About Baseball!!!

Postby El Bastarde » Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:15 pm

^Whelp, now they're starting Rich "We don't trust him to get past the lineup 3 times" Hill in a must-win game in the World Series. Sheesh. Can't say I've been impressed with Dave Roberts. Wasn't big on his crazy panicked yanking of Alex Wood after the guy gives up one hit. Why not use that time to rest the bullpen? I thought the idea was you don't want to use your bullpen every game if you don't have to. Silly baseball.
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Re: Let's Talk About Baseball!!!

Postby Harpua » Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:35 pm

That World Series was one of the more entertaining ones I can remember. Game Seven was one way traffic, but the rest of the series was nuts. I am happy for Houston (The team) and Houston (The City).

Two things I would like to note:

1) The last 2 World Series champions were only 4 seasons removed from a 100+ loss season. That should make fans of teams in rebuild (I'm looking at you, Steve) a bit optimist... assuming they have faith in the guys in charge of the rebuild.

2) All but one of the division champions, and all 4 LCS teams were built using advanced analytics. 3 LCS teams were 100% invested in advanced metrics: Cubs, Astros, Yankees. The Dodgers aren't far off at all from being "all in."

With the amount of success advanced analytics have yielded over the past decade, I think it is odd that ~25 -30% of the league hasn't fully embraced it - or actively shun it. I am of the opinion that this isn't a fad. Things in sports tend to be cyclical, but I really believe that analytics / sabremetrics aren't going anywhere.

What a fun season! I am looking forward to seeing what moves are made in the off season.
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Re: Let's Talk About Baseball!!!

Postby El Bastarde » Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:00 pm

1) The last 2 World Series champions were only 4 seasons removed from a 100+ loss season. That should make fans of teams in rebuild (I'm looking at you, Steve) a bit optimist

Happened to the Tigers in 2006 when they made the World Series. In 2003, they were a win away from tying the losses record at 119. Though, that team was "rebuilding" for 20 years. In the end, I'm convinced it's just about the right manager. Leyland's the guy who turned that around.

Only problem is we never was able to cash one in while everyone else (Cubs, KC, Houston) seems to be pulling it off. Gets annoying. I was please Verlander won it all since he deserves it but I couldn't enjoy it that much since it felt like it should've happened here.

With the amount of success advanced analytics have yielded over the past decade, I think it is odd that ~25 -30% of the league hasn't fully embraced it - or actively shun it.

I don't think anyone really shuns it by now. But I do think some look into it too much where they think all decisions should be based on this. The eye test always wins out and the saber dorks hate this because they can't quantify it.
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Re: Let's Talk About Baseball!!!

Postby Harpua » Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:04 pm

El Bastarde wrote:
I don't think anyone really shuns it by now. But I do think some look into it too much where they think all decisions should be based on this. The eye test always wins out and the saber dorks hate this because they can't quantify it.


The "shunners" were the Marlins and Phillies - both of whom have won a World Series in the last 15 years. I know that Miami is in the middle of a massive shake up, which will likely result in them making an attempt to catch up with the rest of the league. I haven't kept informed at all on the inner goings-on of The Phillies. It is very possible they have changed the philosophy / personnel in their stats department.

COMPLETELY UNRELATED FUN FACT: The Astros' 2017 payroll was ~$150 mil., which is as close to league average as you can get. In the playoffs, they faced the teams with the three highest payrolls: Red Sox ~ $220 mil.; Yankees ~ $225 mil.; Dodgers ~ $265 mil.

The Dodgers payroll = Astros + Pirates.
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