America: Great or Evil?

Non-Phish General
#27

America was founded with the general idea, as I understand it, was that the federal gov’t was to oversee the states and provide general military protection. It was not to run and interfere with individual lives. Schools, libraries, police, fire are either town or state owned and NOT run by the federal gov’t. Neither are the roads, those are state run too. Federal aide can be requested and granted in times of emergency etc.

I, for one, do no want the gov’t to take care of my health care. I want to take care of my health care. I want choices of doctors, treatments, hospitals etc.

CIA, FDA are federal gov’t agencies… probably founded by socialist liberals (J/K!!!, really I don’t know)… Free markets don’t need gov’t regulation. The product and price regulates itself. If you sell a crappy product at a high price you’ll be out of business. But if you’re gov’t regulated or sanctioned you can sell a crappy product at a high price and noone has a choice.

GR conservative, capitalist, economics are a topic of much study and not all that easy to understand. Its easy to just say everybody should have access to everything because we are all people and society needs it. The way things work in the real world are much more complicated.

Check out Thomas Sowell:

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell1.asp

There is so much here and probably noone will take a look but I’ve enjoyed reading his editorials. The most recent, “the economics of college” provides some insight as to the consequences of ‘hand-me-outs’ as compared to earning one’s goods and services.

Hey I’m all for people helping each other out but there’s a big difference when it comes to be expected… and the line of thought that the gov’t should care for us is expectation. The strength of the individual declines. When we don’t pay the consequences of our actions something is lost. We can fuck up and loose it all and it doesn’t matter b/c the gov’t will be there to bail us out. Thats why there was so much backlash to the Bear Sterns bail out… they fucked up and the gov’t bailed them… what lesson do we learn by that? That it doesn’t matter how we act the gov’t will save us!

Okay I’m rambling… I don’t mind talking these things. Most young people are socialist liberals… it shows you’ve got heart. As people age and some become conservative it shows you have wisdom. I didn’t say that.

I have a long way to go. I’m just starting out and have no idea how far I’ll get. But I’m glad to have the opportunity and I’m thankful to be in a country where I’m free to pursue my dreams… no matter how short I fall. It could all be taken away tomorrow.

#28

^

Things are just different in Canada and other parts of the world I guess. A different world view entirely. As people get older and need more and more medical assisstance in Canada they don’t develop more conservative views on health care. In fact generally it’s quite the opposite. Most young people, liberal or not, are wise enough to realize though that at one point in their lives they are going to need the use of our health care system.

Health Care in Canada is Provincially run as well. The Federal government certainly subsidizes certain provinces more than others depending on overall need, but I’m sure to some extent the American federal government helps fund schools, police, fire, etc, when the State is in need. I take it you wouldn’t mind a health care system that is run by the State or Municipalities, or how is that different?

#29

I don’t want gov’t run healthcare. I am responsible for my health care thru purchasing health insurance either thru my employer or privately… or not, in which case I pay out of pocket. I better try to be as healthy as possible and thats my goal… not easy and anything can happen.

There are gov’t programs for the elderly called medicare that one pays for thruout your working life as well as social security which pays you back when you retire. Every paycheck we pay the federal gov’t income tax and medicare tax. 13% of my paycheck goes to the federal gov’t. That will go up if Obama gets in office.

You see the more gov’t funded programs there are the less I receive each week in my paycheck. I work just as hard, just as many hours and get less and less pay. In the words of Obama its out of “fairness” that my money goes to others that don’t make as much or have different colored skin or whatever… those standards are made by the politicians, whoever they think should get the money… and I take the hit. And make no mistake my paycheck is not very big… I’m a nurse assistant for crying out loud.

But you see if you work hard in this country, make some money over your lifetime and retire then you can choose where you will be cared for, what nursing home you will go to, who will be your doctor. If you play your cards right you can be treated very well. Exceptionally. And thats the beauty of the free-market. If the gov’t takes all our savings and uses it to build gov’t nursing homes and hospitals then my fate is sealed when I retire. I go where the gov’t tells me to go.

My grandmother is presently moving from her home of 50 years after the death of my grandfather to a retirement home. She’s selling her house and paying for it and is quite excited about it. She’s not bothering with medicare b/c if she did she has to go where the gov’t will send her… which is a dingy nursing home compared to where she is going.

No, y’all can keep your socialism.

#30

Alright man. If you’re happy I’m happy.

#31

goldphish, I can’t help but feel that your views are quite self centred.
The question in the poll is “Is America a good force in the world or bad?” but when you replied to fone about why he could have an opinion, almost all your justifications for what made America a good force in the world were things like having electricity, education, food on the shelves and how you have an easy life. You feel thankful to be in a country where you’re free to pursue your dreams, but not everyone is in that country. Your reasons for supporting private healthcare are because you can afford them and it’s as simple as just working hard and making some money over your lifetime to pay for it.

They might be reasons as to why America should be a force for great in the world, but they aren’t examples of it. How life as an American is in America and the question of whether or not America is a good force in the world are two different topics as I see it. Also, if you do have an easy life and are fortunate enough to live in a country with libraries, heat in the winter and education and are enjoying luxurious lives as you put it, then what would be so bad about some form of public healthcare or being slightly aultruistic towards the less fortunate members of society?

I spent about two years in the US and knew someone that had to drop out of University because they were ill and couldn’t afford both tuition fees and medical bills. Whilst I’m happy for your grandmother being excited to move out of her house, not everyone has a house that they can just sell up and have that luxury of picking and choosing where they go. How would you feel if your grandmother didn’t have that option, would you blame her for not working hard enough?

If there was some partial form of public healthcare then surely that would be a good thing, I understand your reasons such as private healthcare being more efficient because of it being a business and I don’t disagree. I still think there should be something there for people that can’t afford it though, which isn’t always as a result of them expecting to be bailed out or having not worked hard enough in their life. Having a public health service such as the UK, which has its fair share of problems don’t worry, doesn’t mean there isn’t any form of private healthcare though, because there is.

Anyway, my point was that the poll question and the way this conversation has diverted are about two different topics…which I think I’ve only added to the confusion of. Like I said before, I didn’t vote because I think the American people for the most part are awesome, it’s the government that are letting you guys down in the eyes of the world though.

#32

True but in general I wanted to hear peoples views on America from within and without… I wanted to hear if people had a general negative or positive tone. As a free market I’d say America is good in the world global economy. As a compassionate country I’d say America is good to help other countries in time of need. If you’re a leftist, fascist, dictator regime prone to shedding blood to get and stay in power then you probably hate America. america stands fro freedom and individual rights… not the kind of thing you want the people you control to be thinking about.

The examples of how fortunate life can be in America is an example of opportunity. Opportunity that millions upon millions in this world do not have. People born into slavery or a country without individual freedom now nothing of this opportunity. When they hear of America they begin to yearn for it… yearn for the freedom to pursue life as they wish. I feel thats a positive force in the world.

We do have some form of public healthcare. Its called medicare. When you become of retirement age or otherwise you are eligible for this aid. We also have social security which gives you a monthly check. If you are disabled physically or mentally the gov’t sends you a monthly check. If you are a single mother you receive more gov’t money. Also if you are sick you cannot be rejected medical care in a hospital emergency room. Who foots the bill? The taxpayers. I don’t know what you guys think but there are countless gov’t subsidizing programs for those that can’t afford to live. Some people don’t work and us tax payers foot the bill for their life.

I am not against these sort of reach out programs but I’m certainly not for more socialism. In fact I wouldn’t mind see less, there is already too much. again click on the Thomas Sowell link above and read “The economics of college” for example and sound reasoning of this line of thinking… if you’re truly interested in learning something.

And thats life. While that is unfortunate there is noone to tell him he can’t go back to school after he gets better. Alex sometimes life does not go as smooth as we’d like but thats not an invitation to give up. Thats an invitation to persevere. The gov’t should not be used to “save” us everytime we hit a bump in the road. In the end after you’re friend dealt with his illness and then finished his school he will value his degree and education because he put in the hard work and persevered to make it so. That only gives him more strength. He will appreciate it more.

And thats where medicare would kick in. But she would have to live in a place that the gov’t can afford. In some ways, yes, it would be her short-sightedness for not saving up for retirement thru her life. That should be the goal or a goal of any young person including you. Thats called being responsible, individual responsibility. we just want to run and play while were young but later when things get tough we want the bail out.

Reminds me of that old fable of the Ant and the Grasshopper you know? The Grasshopper played all summer and made fun of the ant who spend all summer preparing for winter. When winter came around the Grasshopper came looking to the ant for hand-me-outs. The grasshopper had the opportunity and didn’t take it a subsequently froze his little ass off in the snow. Summer is youth, winter is old age. The Ant is a responsible person the grasshopper, irresponsible. Which are you?

Again medicare/medicaid. We have more gov’t social programs then you can shake a stick at. Even better are community programs to help the eldery etc. Affordable elderly housing, meals on wheels… Those are the best. Remember I working a community nursing home and see it all the time. We have many residents there that simply have no where else to go and live quite comfortably. In many cases they are funded by state and fed gov’t.

Well I will concede that they need to get their act together and get these damn energy prices down. But you have these crazed environmentalist liberals who won’t let us drill our own oil etc. I recently heard of some whacko liberal VT senator is calling for OPEC to produce more oil or we will sell them our weapons at a higher price. Weapons for oil! Hows that for a good deal eh? What a dingbat and its people like him that won’t let us drill our own. naish.

#33

Well then lets have a party!

::searches for necks’ pic of dancing rodney dangerfeild::

Ah, here it is.

;D

#34

Thanks for the lengthy reply man. You raise some good points that I wasn’t aware of with regards to medicare. I don’t really agree with regards to your views on illness and education though. Sure if you miss a semester or something but not if it’s something more serious that lasts longer or if it costs so much that you can’t afford to return back to school. That’s whole other topic on the price of schooling though. I think it should also be noted that many of the countries that come top in regards to education, quality of living etc are often Scandinavian countries which have extremely high tax rates.

It could be suggested that maybe Americans have a different mentality, geared towards self worth and ones individual ambitions or desires. In contrast those countries such as Sweden may be more community spirited, I don’t know and both have their positive and negative points I’m sure. I’m going to Sweden in June though so maybe that’ll shed some light on it for me.

I agree that the opportunities you are given are great, that they should be valued and might be the inspiration for people in other countries that are less fortunate. I just don’t think that the American government does as much as they could to portray this image abroad. Whilst there are positive governmental policies there are also negative ones that don’t really characterise the supposed ideals of freedom and justice etc. Those are the ones that are damaging Americas reputation abroad and which is why I first said it was 50/50 in my opinion.

#35

Yeah well there would be more money if is wasn’t for gov’t programs such as affirmative action… where you get money and opportunity based on the color of your skin and NOT credentials. There isn’t a broad based answer to your problem of education and illness. Either way perseverance is the key to success. Gov’t help or not.

I guess. So we should all be like sweden. I don’t know about that. We have to do some research.

Self worth is rooted in capitalist philosophy. Yes there is a deep philosophy behind all this stuff. Read Ayn Rand or Terry Goodkind. I read the later and what I gained from it helped to understand individual rights,self reliancy and free market.

Since when did it become Americas responsibility to campaign for a brighter image abroad? I don’t get it. Are other countries doing this? Sweden? Peru? Whoever? To me it seems you are stuck on the war image where Bush went into Iraq mostly against UN popular opinion. Oh well. Get over it France.

People that hate America, ie islamofacist terrorists, aren’t going to like america or any free state no matter what we portray abroad.

#36

It’s not Americas responsibility to campaign for it so to speak. You mentioned that the American opportunities should be seen as a positive force because it is a driving force for people in unfortunate circumstances such as slavery. My point was that Americas governmental policies do quite a lot abroad which doesn’t make people think that way too.

#37

Like what? You keep saying this but offer no backup? What do you base your opinion on?

Freedom and individual rights don’t need to be propagated as you suggest. The example of such a life is enough. People are intelligent enough to see it on their own. Course anti-American propaganda thru-out the world by negative factions probably contribute to more negative views about America then anything else. You think Hugo Chavez is telling his country of the virtues of individual rights? KNAWT!

#38

My instigator nemesis returns… ;D

#39

I didn’t say they had to be propagated. You mistook me for saying that last time so the entire idea of my last post was to state it again? “It’s not Americas responsibility to campaign for it so to speak.”

With regards to Americas actions abroad and how they reflect badly on the country. The events of My Lai in Vietnam, support for dictators such as Augusto Pinochet, the massive presence of the air bases on Okinawa and crimes committed by the US service men whilst there, the treatment of prisoners in abu ghriab…

I don’t want to get into a massive debate about all of those, it’s friday evening and I’ve just finished my last year at university so I’m heading out for beers. we can have our own views, I’ll just join the party with you and goldenroad if it’s all good. :slight_smile:

#40

What Tony says!

#41

Here’s what many people in other countries and GoldenRoad need to be reminded of:

AMERICA AND ITS GOVERNMENT ARE NOT ONE AND THE SAME!!!

People see the action of our government and hate Americans. Goldy, you should know from many of the posts here that many of us do NOT like the actions of the US government or what many of our policies are. I personally try to ignore the government completely and if I could get away with it I wouldn’t pay those scumbags one cent of taxes and would instead only support local functions like police, schools and whatnot through local taxes since those actually have a legitimate affect to me and my life.

We do NOT have control over our government. Seriously, we can’t change our horrible system of elections and we have no control over the people we elect once they’re in office. Our government is horribly flawed and horribly misdirected.

But PLEASE remember…America is not JUST the government. America is filled with wonderful people, many of whom care for others, are not arrogant about our country and are very caring for each other. We may not be the most world-conscious but then why should we be? Just as it’s not our job to police the world, it’s not our job to bail them out or give them support either. Many people like me just want to live our lives, go to our jobs and have fun…and THAT is what America is about. It’s about enjoying our lives and being good to each other.

This crap about health care, the war, and whatever else…that has nothing to do with the everyday American…as much as people like to claim we do, we do NOT have control over any of that. However we can control how we treat each other in public and in our every day lives.

And for that, I think we’re okay, yes?

Stevo

#42

^ I thought I made it clear that I was just talking about their Government. I have nothing against any humans per se. I would question the motives of those who choose to run for public office, but it does not mean that I think they are any less of people either. The Government is what I’ve been talking about, not any individual. By America : Great or Evil? I thought we were implying the American Government.

But I think that fact that me and goldphish can still throw down Caddyshack style proves that.

#43

Okay…my mistake. I didn’t read every post between you two so I might have missed that.

But yeah…for me, I thought this poll was about America in general. When I think of America, I don’t think of the government. I’ve always had a philosophy to not worry about things I have no control over. Since I have no control over our government, I don’t worry about it. It does things, I deal with it and I move on. No biggie.

Stevo

#44

Hey, I think we have a greater than average share of assholes in this country. Afterall, if you’re a greedy sonofabitch where are you going to get the most for your efforts? Capitalism is designed for the avaricious personality, the highly motivated greed mongers who populate the world.

And these creeps exist and thrive here at all economic and racial categories, the stronger, wealthier ones having more initial power from which to grab more. I keep thinking of the line from Citizen Kane when Bernstein tells the interviewer that it’s not hard to make a lot of money, if that’s ALL you want to do is to make a lot of money.

And unfortunately, I think this country does have it’s lion share of unthinking, unfeeling capitalists. But these folks just don’t exist here. They populate most countries in spite of the system of government, even those deemed as socialist.

So I actually believe the tide will turn as we turn this crap onto a “world economy”. The resonating money creeps will start popping up all over the place, especially in China as it mobilizes it’s capitalistic tendencies under the guise of communism. The money is just too much of a lure for even the most prinicpled of commies. There aren’t many among us who would prefer a poorly run filthy packed subway to a chaufeur driven limo anyday.

We do suck as a people. I think we’ve had our collective heads up our asses for a long time, missing many opportunities to simplify our wanton lifestyles and resource wasting ways. We have many admirable traits as well, but a little self deprecation and self examination of every step we take in life, is something incumbent upon all of us.

When an American attempts to walk bare foot on the rice paper, he generally shreds the damn thing in the first step.

#45

lol, nice.

I don’t have a huge problem with the US gov’t. I mean I expect there to be gray areas and problems and I will be the first to admit the freaking military is a HUGE wasteful money pit. I mean how much money is frivolously and corruptly spent… one could never count that high. I’m not kissing the gov’ts feet but for the most part the founding principles of our gov’t is a masterful piece of work. It’s the damn corrupt politicians that ruin it.

#46

I don’t want a debate either. I’m more interested in a sharing of ideas and facts. All the above mentioned actions I either don’t know or know little of. So if you could provide more info I would read up on it.

I’m interested if the bad outlook other nations have of the US are founded in reason and facts… not just “I hate the US! Bush Sucks!” propaganda crap. If all certain nations see of the US gov’t is a big air force base with women rapers then I can see people getting pissed. Tho I’m sure there are many well run bases that probably provide some sort of incentive for the communities they occupy.