Do you believe in god?

Non-Phish General
#101

I strongly disagree with that assertion. Yes it is true that our thoughts are based on concepts we have learned/experienced. But due to the nature of our brain, we can bring together these concepts regardless of weather or not they are related to form new ideas. The new thoughts don’t have to be true though (even though the original concepts are grounded in reality). We create “pseudo-experiences” all the time in especially in decision making. From these new ideas, our brain can then form even more new ideas based on this new notion, even if this notion is not fact. I mean this is what your imagination is right?

I can see what you are saying in that everything you know is ultimately grounded in the information that you accumulate. But what happens when the information you are fed is wrong? Is that not the source of misconception?

To me, the idea of god is just a metaphor.

I am not telling people to believe me and I strongly encourage everyone to think for themselves.

#102

What the hell am I talking about? ‘Sorry Africa, it’s just we need contrast’?

I just mean to say that it helps to realize that there’s a reason for the concept of Heaven - Earth sucks sometimes, no doubt about it, you know? Especially people; just when you start to trust that folks are inherently amazing and good, you run across a person, or a story about a person or some people, and you’re brought back down to the sobering reality that people can be terrible creatures, and our collective experience is forever doomed to suffer from that.

That stuff’s at the heart of much of the suffering I’d gander to venture to propose to suggest to say we suffer from.

Then you know, disease, natural disaster, … it ain’t Heaven, is all I’m saying. Sometimes I take comfort in that perspective, because you can only really get to peace when it’s despite those things. Cuz they’re in our face all the time.

#103

I didn’t see a poll to vote in? But, for the record, I believe in God. It’s funny I logged on and read this thread, cause I just watched a special called ‘inside the green berets’ on NatGeo. In the program, they showed a muslim man being filmed by other taliban members making a propaganda film for the taliban. This muslim man was talking about how he would serve for the glory of Allah. The next clip is a group of taliban members in one car from a good distance, filming this muslim man drive his car into a U.S. convoy and blowing himself and the convoy to high heaven(no pun intended there just typing out loud). The group of taliban men filming the act take off from the area frantically screaming “may Muhammed Abu be a martyr for Allah!!” “may allah accept him into Paradise!” “death be to all the infidels!” “may he who serve for allah be blessed with eternal paradise!!” -and so on and so forth…I sat there and watched this and thought, 'man, these guys are seriously deranged individuals…

I thought that might be a fresh example of religious manipulation that I’ve read about in this thread, as it is obvious to me that religion is, has been, and still is used to control people since the philosophy of God first started. I mean, think about it, this one muslim man thought that by killing himself and 5 other american dudes that he would go to paradise?!? wtf mang? how was that even rational to this guy? He has no proof whatsoever that he would go to paradise and be with allah. All he did was pre-maturely eliminate the only real miracle that he was certain about -his life. I mean, if someone says “yo KR, go blow yourself up and kill so-and-so and you will go to heaven and be with Jesus and be a hero” -I’d tell them to go fuck themselves.

I liked the guy who posted that a snail is God. Because really, that is the truth. You and I, and any living and existing products of matter in this universe, are the true spectacular and miraculous entities in this place we call a world. We all love life, despite not knowing how it started, and despite how many fuckups there are in this world. I watched a documentary recommended to me called ‘the God that wasn’t there’. A friend of mine told me it was really good and highly recommendable. So I watched this documentary and thought it sucked. Not because it was from an atheistic POV, cause i like challenging myself, but because the makers of that kind of material can never deliver an unbiased product. They kind of Bill Maher-it, as someone mentioned. There is a point in the movie when the lead narrator of the doc is done playing ‘gotcha’ with the standard, not-so-bright, deeply religious christians and gets together with a fellow atheist for his point of view, and the two guys just giggle together and start making jokes, all the while making fun of something that might very well be a falsehood, but at the same time offering up no better explanation in place of said religion they were making fun of.

It’s like if you come up with a plan for something, and some guy in the group says, “that plan is retarded”, so you say, “well, what’s your plan?” -and the guy says, “i ain’t got one”…Oh, well great then. Not to start another debate, but it’s like the truthers who say terrorists didn’t attack the towers, so you say, “oh yeah, well what happened then?” -and they say, “well, I’m not sure, but I know the terrorists didn’t do it”…Oh, well great then. Thanks for totally dismissing something but offering up nothing in it’s stead. I mean, I just want those guys in that documentary to explain how I am typing this, and you are reading this, before making wise cracks about a man in the sky.

#104

^I totally understand everything you say. Like I pointed out my one of my earlier posts…there are enough mysteries in life that can NOT be explained with science to maybe open the door for some greater power. Like how the Big bang started or how life itself came out of the primordial soup long ago. It’s just the God folks who claim that they KNOW they are right and refuse to address this stuff. Amazingly, if you actually sit down with an actual priest and mention this stuff, they will almost always understand and keep an open mind about how religion is more about faith than it is about fact. But if you talk to their followers, I think they don’t exactly “get it.” In the end, faith is just another form of positivity and positivity can’t be a bad thing. Its those that misunderstand their own religion that ruin it for others. In the end, religions more often than not create GOOD people rather than bad people as long as they follow the teachings correctly. Whether you believe in God or not, “Love thy neighbor” is an excellent message for anyone.

#105

^^ I think for a lot of people, you don’t have to replace religion with something in order to live without it. Atheism isn’t concerned with replacing religion with something else, and I don’t think it needs to be.

#106

But don’t you find it troubling that a lot of people require the fear of going to hell to act like a good person? I would agree with you that religion has done a lot of good for mankind. It also has done a lot of bad things as well (as mentioned throughout this thread). The problem I have with religion is that it (at least most of them) places certain barriers on progress. It is more a way of keeping things the way they are. They discourage questioning of anything they hold to be true, because if you do you are a blasphemer! They grasp to this silly idea that they have all the answers; we obviously don’t have all the answers (which is why science exists). Science doesn’t claim to know everything yet religion does.

Religious leaders claim that they have some communication with a higher being. Is this not comparable to people who claim to have communication with the dead or the w00k ranting and raving in the lots about “the end is coming”? I think that people believe these leaders because what they say makes sense to them and that they “want to believe”. This want creates a lot of problems in judgment due to the fact that they now will try and make any connection they can to support their belief. More oft than not, these connections come from assertions rather than evidence(which could be said about this post - so go look for yourself!).

Ultimately I think that everyone comes to a point where they search for explanation of where we came from. Incomplete explanations don’t sit well people as it is most logical to have a complete idea of what is going on. Therefore they gravitate towards these sources of “infinite knowledge”.

#107

In any case where people allow themselves to become divided from each other based on belief, then belief is not productive. If people turn to belief to fill some gap, to escape from fear, or to seek self gratification then belief is not productive. There have been many people who have benefited from belief, but also many people have died or antagonized in the name of belief. Or, people who have experienced self deception. Adam also makes a valid point.

Let One be clear, belief in itself is not bad. One is not condemning it at all. Belief in itself does not divide people. But if people cannot understand their own process of belief, then belief can lead to counterproductivity. This counterproductivity is not born out of belief itself, of course, but rather is a product of human consciousness which must be understood.

#108

i just got a B/B+ on a philo paper about god’s nonexistence… fun discussion

#109

The poll was dismembered by the move to the new board. These were the results on the old board:

#110

I tend to agree with much of your statement. But I would not say that “science doesn’t claim” or “religion…places certain barriers”. Science and religion don’t do anything, in and of themselves. It’s the people behind both of them that do those things you mention. I have Christian friends and family members that are all about barriers. I also have many that are the opposite. Many of my atheist friends trash everything that is associated with religion as if science is all knowing. They almost go as far as turning science into a religion in true Hawkings fashion. Again, that is not the case with all atheists, scientists and non-religious persons. They are all generalizations.

Another entirely different subject is the definition of “progress”. This word can be used for anything and everything. One man’s progress may be considered as destructive by others, and vice versa. There are a lot of people that agree with me and a lot that don’t. Some see capitalism as progress, others socialism, others communism and others anarchy. Are any of them wrong to call it progress?

#111

Yes, I do agree that this is weird. But at the same time, I have a feeling that a lot of people who are good people due to religion would have likely have been good people even without it. The folks who have a tendency to do bad things but try not to due to their religion will likely find that belief breaking down eventually and they’ll still do bad things. However, for a short time, it may keep these bad folks from doing bad folks at least for a little while and that’s not that bad.

I agree with this 100%. I remember seeing George Carlin talk about this and the way he put it was that humans were given this great gift to think, and question things and to change and create things. And that it’s been the true failure of the human race that we allowed religion to stifle people’s natural ability to think for themselves. And that truly IS a shame. But at the same time, were the people getting wrapped up in religion really going to be coming up with any new or innovative ideas anyway?..Some people just don’t think like that. But religious groups getting involved in politics and stuff have DEFINITELY tried their best to stifle progress…no doubt about it. But, again, this is not what religions are meant to be doing in the first…it goes right back to those using religion for their own means.

And I can’t STAND anyone who claims that God spoke to them. If a higher being spoke to you, would you comprehend anything it said? It’s a higher being beyong human comprehension. To claim to understand God means you don’t understand what God is. Not to mention that higher beings don’t communicate with insects. Just doesn’t happen.

And on what Mr fivepounds says, science is NOT the be-all, end-all if they think science explains ALL the mysteries of the universe than they’re also mistaken since there’s some things we just can’t prove yet. Not to mention there’s also a fair share of scientific manipulation as well…scientists need money from somewhere…you have to be wary about them as well.

And progress is simple things and it mostly has to do with mindsets rather than political progress. Why is nudity so deriled in society? Why is it far worse for your teen to see sex than to see violence?..90% of the parents I’ve seen seem to believe this. It’s not about changing the political mindset…it’s about this country progressing “mentally.” SNL can’t even make drugs jokes anymore like they used to. Nudity is normal in a lot of modern countries but not this one. There’s still people who refuse to use condoms or birth control because their religion tells them not to…and yet have no problem endlessly producing children they can’t afford. There’s still people not eating ham because some religious book told them not to. Stem cell research has made amazing progress in the scientific field yet silly religious protests have held this progress back. Marijuana does great things for sick people yet religious hang-ups on drugs have held this back as well. Even in extreme cases like Scientology, their beliefs tell them to not take medication and you get incidents like John Travolta’s kid dying simply because he wasn’t on the proper medication for his seizures. This is the “progress” I refer to…why do people not question WHY these things are in place and why they’re supposed to believe this way? There’s rarely a good reason aside from their “good book” or religion simply telling them to and it rarely has anything to do with the actual message of their God. This is the mental progress that has held us back. These people are adults yet follow some book like they’re a toddler following their mommy’s every move and worst of all, they try to force these beliefs on others through laws.

Stevo

#112

Again, people still see “progress” from many perspectives and opinions. I am not arguing against your points, just pointing out that not everyone shares your opinions.

I personally don’t want socialized medicine forced upon me by secularists. But I have friends that believe socialized medicine is absolutely critical. Our ideas of progress are the opposite in this case. I don’t want to argue this. We all seem to be intelligent people, and when intelligent people believe something, they are not likely to change their opinions because of what someone else says.

Many facets of scientology seem odd to me, as does the opposition to condoms, and the same goes for the opposition to the teaching of abstinence as the best birth control.

#113

everyone needs to seperate the idea of god from the idea of religion

#114

We all have the ability to create and destroy…We are all Gods in our own way…

#115

Well, I don’t want to get into this either but no one’s forcing it on you and I still don’t buy this crap that it WILL be forced on us. And yes, I agree…us getting health care isn’t exactly progress…true progress begins when people’s minds begin to change. We can force health care on folks all we want but nothing changes until the medical industry as a whole changes.

It’s not just that too. It’s STILL illegal in Michigan to buy alcohol before noon on a Sunday. This is obviously a religion-based law and someone it’s still in effect. It used to be illegal to get a frickin haircut on a Sunday. These are the things that need to be rooted out and they only exist for religion. There’s a number of silly laws like this.

And yes…Spooks said it best. It’s very possible to believe in a God and not believe in any religion. I’ve still never completely written off the idea of God since there’s still things that aren’t explained but I do dislike religion for most of the reasons we’ve already covered. God doesn’t need a religion and if he exists, likely never asked for it.

Stevo

#116

“It’s not just that too. It’s STILL illegal in Michigan to buy alcohol before noon on a Sunday. This is obviously a religion-based law and someone it’s still in effect. It used to be illegal to get a frickin haircut on a Sunday. These are the things that need to be rooted out and they only exist for religion. There’s a number of silly laws like this.”

I happen to believe that as a society we are absolutely diminished by the destruction of the blue laws, but not for the religious reasons that in their ignorance or enlightenment, brought them into existence in the first place. And I don’t necessarily mean to bring them back on Sunday as “the Lord’s Day” in any specific dogmatic sense, but I think we as this super charged commercialistic hundred mile an hour culture need to stop the day to day shit for at least one day a week. Mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually I believe turning off the world for a day and relaxing with loved ones is something vitally important that we really miss.

Whether we believe in god or follow a religion is immaterial. That we reduce the glut of activity, calm our minds and emotions down, and stop and take a look at one another and start relating again, is more than enough reason to bring them back in my mind. Think about the best part of Thanksgiving or Christmas, and imagine that once a week. Why we were ever convinced to give that up, I’ll never know.

Maybe I do know. Maybe it was the commercialists who attacked the day as a “religious” convention and convinced all those free thinkers that religion shouldn’t control someone’s right to by a beer on Sunday if they want one, working people into an anti-religious frenzy about it when in reality it was only the almighty dollar that they were concerned with. And what and where has it gotten us? Only slightly happier when the beer sets in, otherwise were miserable, and think that the beer is the only way to relax.

#117

I don’t believe in religion either, human nature makes it improbable to “believe” in anything they create. They are too judgemental, too ignorant and too vain, and are flawed in many other ways. This applies to christians, statists, secularists, muslims, jews and atheists alike. I am religious, I go to church, I believe in god, I do not believe in religion. And you are right, god never asked for catholisism or methodism. I am not sure what the Muslim and Hindu god(s) asked for.

And I hear ya on the no-beer on Sunday thing, I grew up in Indiana with the same law and it made it hard to host a superbowl party, but it is Michigan’s right to have that as a law. I wouldn’t be opposed to the cancellation of that law, but there isn’t anything patently wrong with it.

In Philadelphia, you can’t put pretzels in bags based on an Act of 1760.

It is against the law to mispronounce the name of the State of Arkansas in that State.

#118

Blue laws are just as absurd and unconstitutional as marijuana prohibition. They should be done away with because they have no place in what claims to be a free, non-secular society. I completely agree that America and most of the western world are far too money-driven, commercially obsessed and work addicted. As a business owner, I do my best to give my employees the time off they need to keep their heads clear and I try to take that time myself when I can. But when the government prohibits me from buying a beer on sunday or sparking up a doobie, it is nothing short of oppression (thank GOD I live in California :wink:).

Believe what you want-- just don’t force it on me.

#119

I had to quote it all…well said! I wish the world would slow down a bit. I remember how slow and peaceful Sunday’s were as a kid, and I really do miss that. It was nice hanging out with the family, even if it became boring at times.

#120

^But, again, as “nice” as lazy Sundays may or may not be, is it really ethical for the government to dictate what can and can’t be done on that day? What about the Jews? Their day of rest is from sun down Friday to sun down Saturday. Maybe you shouldn’t be allowed to buy alcohol on Friday nights or Saturdays either? Phish has jewish and christian members. If everyone in that band observed their day of rest, we would never see Phish shows on the weekends. No Friday night shows, no shows before sundown on Saturdays and no shows on Sundays… not to mention, no traveling to the next venue on those days either… so maybe no Monday shows, too? Sounds fun.