Have an accent? Brown skin? Don't go to Arizona.

Obligatory Genesis Fluff

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9byfevggn0[/youtube]

It makes sense to me. I understand the element of abusive cops. I also cannot predict the future and have no idea what kind of scenario Arizona is getting itself into good or bad. I do know that they are basing their law on the premise that proper identification is required. This is something that is required in every state. When I say that I don’t know how it will play out then I am just admitting that I don’t know what kind of individual stories will be coming to the surface once this law is implemented. I acknowledge that some problems may occur and I completely understand the dynamic of a less than savory police force that may want to put forth their own brand of justice on their own terms as they use this law to conjure up false forms of probable cause.

In the end I completely agree with you on the issue of strengthening our border. The real solution to this problem is beefing up the border. The border wall to nowhere is a tragic piece of American history that fell completely flat on her ass and should have been seen through. The fact that it is so easy to get over here illegally is the main problem. I agree with you. I just see Arizona reacting to something in a way that they probably have convinced themselves is a proactive solution. I don’t live in a border state and only know what I read and consume from my news outlets. I’m not claiming to have the answers but I do think that I understand why Arizona and the ten soon to follow states are moving forward with this attempt.

It’s not the best solution. I admit. I just understand why they are taking these measures and I also see why so many Americans support the law. It’s too complicated of an issue to trivialize on a Phish message board no matter what your stance is on the topic.

Arizona has a long, shameful history of demonizing Mexican migrants

azstarnet.com/news/opinion/artic … 457b0.html

Proper identifcation has to be carried by law abiding citizens in this country. It’s a federal law.

I read it on the internet so it must be true. Dooj is looking for something like “State of NY 221.05” (that’s a drug law btw)

That’s just plain terrible and sad.

RE: The draining resources argument

http://reason.org/news/show/122411.html

And, US citizens are not required to carry identification unless they are driving a motor vehicle. In any other case they are simply require to state their name:

If you’re going to spout conservative nonsense Mr. Champion, be ready to back that shit up.

^You and your pesky facts. :smiley:

I’m not even gonna get back into this, all I gotta say is someone is finally makin’ some sense, that someone being Mr. Champion…carry on.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Citizens have the right to not show papers. Liberty means NOT HAVING to show papers.

HAVING to show papers whenever an “authority” figure asks, provided you broke no laws is tyranny.

That being said, illegal aliens ARE breaking the law.

Illegal Immigrants’ Cost to Government Studied

By Mary Fitzgerald
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, August 26, 2004; Page A21
A report that found that illegal immigrants in the United States cost the federal government more than $10 billion a year – a sum it estimated would almost triple if they were given amnesty – has drawn criticism from immigration advocacy groups.

For its report, the Center for Immigration Studies, a Washington-based group that advocates tougher immigration policies, used Census Bureau figures to compare the revenue that illegal immigrants contribute through taxes with the cost of government services they use.

Illegal immigrants create a fiscal deficit because they have low incomes, Steven A. Camarota said. (Robert A. Reede - Robert A. Reeder – The Washington Post)

“Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household,” said Steven A. Camarota, author of the study.

The costs outlined in the report include government services such as Medicaid, medical treatment for the uninsured, food assistance programs, the federal prison and court systems, and federal aid to schools.

The study acknowledged that, on average, the costs that illegal-immigrant households bear on the federal government are less than half that of other households, and that many of those costs relate to their U.S.-born children. It also pointed out that tax payments by illegal-immigrant households constitute one-fourth those of other households because of low-income jobs.

“With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services,” Camarota said.

The report estimates that granting legal status to illegal immigrants would dramatically increase their cost, causing the net fiscal deficit to rise to nearly $29 billion because, the author argues, unskilled immigrants would have access to more government services while continuing to make modest tax payments.

Camarota concluded in his report that the fiscal impact could be lessened only by stringently enforcing immigration laws, a view that drew criticism from some immigration specialists and advocacy groups that also accused him of not coming up with constructive recommendations.

“Implied within this study’s findings is the sense that if these people could suddenly be made to disappear, the federal government would be $10 billion to the plus, and that is almost certainly not true once you look at the numbers,” Jeffrey S. Passel, a demographer at the Urban Institute, said in an interview.

“Should you charge up to undocumented aliens the cost of small-business loans that they don’t get or the cost of civil litigation, among other things? This report does that,” he said.

Frank Sharry, director of the National Immigration Forum, an immigrant advocacy group, took issue with the report’s treatment of illegal immigrants’ U.S.-born children, who are American citizens.

“The costs of the children of immigrants are accounted for [in the report], but not their contributions to the economy as workers and taxpayers,” he said in a written statement, adding that the report’s conclusions were not helpful to the debate on immigration reform.

“There is a growing consensus in both political parties that our immigration system needs to be comprehensively reformed,” Sharry said. “Our current system of haphazard laws, spotty enforcement, border chaos and unfair restrictions needs to be replaced by a regulatory regime that makes immigration safe, legal and orderly.”

[b]Bottom line is we should penalize the companies that hire illegal aliens NOT the illegal aliens themselves unless they are caught committing a crime at which point you would deport. Those jobs could go to Americans if companies were prohibited to NOT hire illegal slave labor for pennies on the dollar they would have to increase the wage and subsequently Americans WOULD want those jobs. If there are no jobs for the illegal aliens they will go home on their own for the most part.

That being said when they do “crack down” it won’t be on illegal immigrants, it will be the US citizens. Keeping us IN.[/b]

Nice find.

I specified law abiding citizens in my post. I should have clarified about having to have identification while driving a vehicle. I think it is common knowledge that most police stops happen as traffic stops. However, there are exceptions and to think that we don’t already live in a police state is ridiculous. If an officer wants to hole for questioning under suspicion through probable cause (and we know probable cause can be bullshit at times) then the right to interrogation exists and this includes discovery of identity.

It would be nice to think that we still have liberty in this country. It’s just not true anymore. Our liberty has been slowly stripped away from us as individuals of this nation. If the authorities want something to happen then it is going to happen.

Has anyone read this book? I have some major issues with the way Mark Levin presents his ideas. If he presented them in a different way then it would be a lot easier for me to get on board. His overall attitude has done a lot to ruin the conservative party and the image that lies therein. His radio show can be laughable at times but if you can peer through the anger and paranoia then every now and then a decent idea comes out.

Being an illegal alien IS a crime. Have you watched Food, Inc? The piece on the Mexican corn farmers that were forced out of work because of all the money we put behind cheap corn production is really sad. They migrated up here to work in the meat packing industry and essentially took over the entire work force. Now those very companies who actually bussed them up here in some cases are selling them up the river 15 people at a time in a cooperative with the government so that their facility won’t be shut down. They should be raiding those piece of shit companies instead but they do it off site so that company can stay in tact.

Do you know what would happen to manufacturing and meat processing if the illegal work force decided to organize and mobilize an effort of dissent in this country by just not showing up to work?

Can you imagine?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtuMvdjX0Ow[/youtube]

Jan Brewer finally realizes that Arizona has an image problem. Her answer? Tell Arizonians not to leave the state. :wtf:

news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100514/ … ews_pl2070

This sounds like a nice direction for this thread. Come up with your best slogan. It used to be

Arizona: Land of Opportunity :clap:

How about…

Arizona: You Forced This On Us

[attachment=0]welcometoAZ.jpg[/attachment]

I here you man and I’m not PRO illegal alien. I just think the hijacked government shouldn’t give them any incentive. They do. That’s the problem.

I have the answer or, rather Ron does:

The Immigration Question

by Ron Paul
by Ron Paul

The recent immigration protests in Los Angeles have brought the issue to the forefront, provoking strong reactions from millions of Americans. The protesters’ cause of open borders is not well served when they drape themselves in Mexican flags and chant slogans in Spanish. If anything, their protests underscore the Balkanization of America caused by widespread illegal immigration. How much longer can we maintain huge unassimilated subgroups within America, filled with millions of people who don’t speak English or participate fully in American life? Americans finally have decided the status quo is unacceptable, and immigration may be the issue that decides the 2008 presidential election.

We’re often reminded that America is a nation of immigrants, implying that we’re coldhearted to restrict immigration in any way. But the new Americans reaching our shores in the late 1800s and early 1900s were legal immigrants. In many cases they had no chance of returning home again. They maintained their various ethnic and cultural identities, but they also learned English and embraced their new nationality.

Today, the overwhelming majority of Americans – including immigrants – want immigration reduced, not expanded. The economic, cultural, and political situation was very different 100 years ago.

We’re often told that immigrants do the jobs Americans won’t do, and sometimes this is true. But in many instances illegal immigrants simply increase the supply of labor in a community, which lowers wages. And while cheap labor certainly benefits the economy as a whole, when calculating the true cost of illegal immigration we must include the cost of social services that many new immigrants consume – especially medical care.

We must reject amnesty for illegal immigrants in any form. We cannot continue to reward lawbreakers and expect things to get better. If we reward millions who came here illegally, surely millions more will follow suit. Ten years from now we will be in the same position, with a whole new generation of lawbreakers seeking amnesty.

Amnesty also insults legal immigrants, who face years of paperwork and long waits to earn precious American citizenship.

Birthright citizenship similarly rewards lawbreaking, and must be stopped. As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be citizens, the perverse incentive to sneak into this country remains strong. Citizenship involves more than the mere location of one’s birth. True citizenship requires cultural connections and an allegiance to the United States. Americans are happy to welcome those who wish to come here and build a better life for themselves, but we rightfully expect immigrants to show loyalty and attempt to assimilate themselves culturally. Birthright citizenship sometimes confers the benefits of being American on people who do not truly embrace America.

We need to allocate far more resources, both in terms of money and manpower, to securing our borders and coastlines here at home. This is the most critical task before us, both in terms of immigration problems and the threat of foreign terrorists. Unless and until we secure our borders, illegal immigration and the problems associated with it will only increase.

April 4, 2006

Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.

Ron Paul Archives

^I don’t think he said anything there that constitutes a new method to build a rocket to mars. or something. Maybe a rockette from mars… that might be alright. :wink: So long as she comes here legally. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Yup, strengthen the borders and deal with the illegal immigrants already in this country. I think laws such as the one in AZ are the tip of the iceberg.

Hmmm like the lady from V the series?

:thumbup:

Oh dear… wouldn’t mind checkin’ her papers… What’s that?! You don’t have them with you? Come with me ma’am. :mrgreen: