thank you Goldphish for sayin’ that. …this law isn’t about race, it’s about legality! I don’t like Arpaio or Gov’t for that matter, however, I can’t help butt agree with teh bill so far… not completely, obviously since nothing the government puts out is completely legit.
Just curious here: exactly what legal benefits are illegal immigrants getting? I imagine most of them don’t have health care, any type of insurance, or any legal representation. Most are payed off-the-record, so how would they have any type of employer bennefits?
I am just asking for clarification, because I really don’t know.
I’m not sure how many times I can repeat the same thing in this thread, so instead I guess I will try a different route…
Checkitout: How many of your own rights are you willing to give up to ensure the legality of the people around you? You say in your post that you are okay with the idea that legal, law abiding citizens could be harassed or detained under this law, because it might weed out an illegal immigrant.
How far are you willing to go?
Would you be okay with random home searches (with the intent of finding illegals, of course!)? I assume you have nothing to hide? Perhaps the gold star would be the way to go? It would definitely make identification of citizens vs. illegals easier… Or maybe just highway checkpoints? You have a little extra time before work don’t you? Imagine how many illegals we could net if we stopped every car on the highway!
How far, guys?
It’s hypothetical… its where proponents of amnesty wish to go. And simply by virtue of living in this country one reaps its rewards… clean water, a civil nation etc… don’t forget; this is the richest most peaceful nation on earth. think about it marco if you’re coming from some war torn hell hole with rampant disease, crime, and lawlessness… or let’s say your country just suffered an earthquake that killed a quarter million people… or your country’s gov’t is extremely corrupt and kills its own citizens… (I could go on)… coming to the US is like entering paradise… even without employer benefits 
And you can come here… you just need to follow the legal process…
^ Jeff, I don’t think anyone is arguing that illegal immigration is awesome and everyone should get in on the fun.
We’re talking about this particular law in AZ, the provisions built into it, and the possible ramifications for completely legal, law-abiding US citizens, and the men and women responsible for AZ law enforcement. Oh, and the secret banking cartel taking over the world.
Nobody in this thread has said that we should just leave the doors wide open and invite all of Mexico or any other country to move on in.
The funny thing is, most of the types that support this law would be the ones most likely to go absolutely apeshit if they were detained and interrogated on their immigration status. I’m not singling out anyone in this particular thread. But, in general, can you imagine one of these chest-beating, bible-thumping, pro-“Amurica” Republicans getting stopped and detained by a cop who questions their legal status?
They would scream bloody murder.
^^ ((AZ cop)) We’re looking for some illegal immigrants from Poland, you fit the profile sir. . .white and stupid and drunk. . .I’m going to detain you until you can prove your citizenship.
This will be TLDR for most, but Desmond Tutu makes some good points, having had firsthand experience with being detained by police and incarcerated due to the color of his skin.
[size=150]Arizona — the wrong answer [/size]
by Archbishop Desmond Tutu
I am saddened today at the prospect of a young Hispanic immigrant in Arizona going to the grocery store and forgetting to bring her passport and immigration documents with her. I cannot be dispassionate about the fact that the very act of her being in the grocery store will soon be a crime in the state she lives in. Or that, should a policeman hear her accent and form a “reasonable suspicion” that she is an illegal immigrant, she can – and will – be taken into custody until someone sorts it out, while her children are at home waiting for their dinner.
Equally disturbing is what will happen in the mind of the policeman. The police talk today about how they do not wish to, and will not, engage in racial profiling. Yet faced with the option of using common sense and compassion, or harassing a person who has done nothing wrong, a particularly sinister aspect of Arizona’s new immigration law will be hanging over his head. He can be personally sued, by anyone, for failing to enforce this inhumane new act.
I recognize that Arizona has become a widening entry point for illegal immigration from the South. The wave has brought with it rising violence and drug smuggling.
But a solution that degrades innocent people, or that makes anyone with broken English a suspect, is not a solution. A solution that fails to distinguish between a young child coming over the border in search of his mother and a drug smuggler is not a solution.
I am not speaking from an ivory tower. I lived in the South Africa that has now thankfully faded into history, where a black man or woman could be grabbed off the street and thrown in jail for not having his or her documents on their person.
How far can this go? We lived it – police waking a man up in the middle of the night and hauling him off to jail for not having his documents on his person while he slept. The fact that they were in his nightstand near the bed was not good enough.
Of course if you suggested such a possibility today to an Arizona policeman he would be adamant that he would never do such a thing. And I would believe him. Arizona is a long way from apartheid South Africa.
The problem is, under the new law, the one or two who would do it are legitimized. All they have to say is that they believed that illegal immigrants were being harbored in the house. They would be protected and sanctioned by this law.
Abominations such as apartheid do not start with an entire population suddenly becoming inhumane. They start here. They start with generalizing unwanted characteristics across an entire segment of a population. They start with trying to solve a problem by asserting superior force over a population. They start with stripping people of rights and dignity - such as the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty - that you yourself enjoy. Not because it is right, but because you can. And because somehow, you think this is going to solve a problem.
However, when you strip a man or a woman of their basic human rights, you strip them of their dignity in the eyes of their family and their community, and even in their own eyes. An immigrant who is charged with the crime of trespassing for simply being in a community without his papers on him is being told he is committing a crime by simply being. He or she feels degraded and feels they are of less worth than others of a different color skin. These are the seeds of resentment, hostilities and in extreme cases, conflict.
Such “solutions” solve nothing. As already pointed out, even by people on the police force, Arizona’s new laws will split the communities, make it less likely that people in the immigrant communities will work with the police. They will create conditions favorable to the very criminals these laws are trying to disarm.
The Latinos in Arizona have not come to Arizona because they want to live in communities wracked with violence and crime. I would guess that the most recent arrivals have fled their border towns and the growing violence there as drug lords tightened their control of the communities. They want to live and raise their children in peace, just as you or I do.
I am certain that, given the chance, the leaders of the Latino immigrant communities in Arizona would enthusiastically work with the state to find constructive solutions to these problems. I am very sure that they would like, as much as others, to rid Arizona of the drug smugglers, human traffickers and other criminal elements infiltrating their communities.
We can only hope that this law will be thrown out of the courts in short order. I do not disagree with the calls to boycott the businesses in the state until it is turned around.
In the meantime, it has opened the door to some smart state leaders sitting down with the leaders of the Latino communities in Arizona and hammering out some solutions that actually work. Hopefully these solutions would recognize the difference between a drug smuggler and a man willing to stand outside a gas station in the hot sun for hours in the hopes that someone will give him some work for the day.
The problem of migrating populations is not going to go away any time soon. If anyone should know this, it should be Americans, many of whom landed here themselves to escape persecution, famine or conflict. With the eyes of the world now on them, Arizona has the opportunity to create a new model for dealing with the pitfalls, and help the nation as a whole find its way through the problems of illegal immigration. But to work, it must be a model that is based on a deep respect for the essential human rights Americans themselves have grown up enjoying.
(Copied from thecommunity.com/blog/2010/04/28 … ng-answer/)
^ Yeah, my first thoughts when my roommate told me about this law was how much it resembles the pass laws of South Africa’s past.
I fear for the well being of America’s future, as I’ve heard people who are not outraged by this potentially tyrannical legislation.
We have more national debt than anyone else and are currently at war in two countries. While our homicide rate may not be the highest, there are several European countries which rank lower. So I’m not sure if calling us the most peaceful nation would be an accurate statement.
I do understand what you are saying, we can’t just let run-down countries barge in and cause everything to collapse. However, I don’t think it’s appropriate to address them with a holier-than-thou attitude. Saying that the U.S. is an island immune of corruption and violence is idealistic, IMO. We just use more cunning words and to “justify” our practices. For examlpe, how we tortured and detained guantanmo prisoners without trial in the name of “national safety”. Or how the U.S. government invaded the public’s privacy further in the same vein.
Now of course I’m just looking at one piece of the puzzle here. Clearly we are better off than many other nations, you’re absolutely right. I just don’t think we’re going about this the right way.
Amnesty may very well not be the answer. But I think we should have a more cohesive approach. Whether we like it or not, there are millions of these people. So we have to work with them if we want a practical sollution.
Sorry Jeff, I hate getting into political discussions. 
Thanks for responding to my inquiry.
abc15.com/content/news/phoen … nkiSQ.cspx
Seems there is an attempt to lessen the likelihood of racial profiling. I don’t really buy it…
Nice post by Jay to put the Tutu quote. He says our feelings as good as anyone. He echoes my thoughts that even if the law has good reasons, the IMPLEMENTATION is sometimes vastly different than how the law is intended. Think about it…cops in that area have had to deal with all sorts of illegals who don’t like or trust them…they’ve likely already got some strong feelings about not just the illegals but the legal folks who harbor them or employ them. Now you can legitimize them abusing these people? Not smart.
And Fugazi, don’t you think it’s a little “boy who cried wolf” of you that for ANY law ever passed, you come up with some ridiculous conspiracy that’s behind it? I mean for EVERY SINGLE political issue you have one. There’s no way this is possible. It’s just not. If you keep yelling “conspiracy!” with every single thing, the very concept of a conspiracy loses all meaning. It’s the boy who cried wolf…people just start tuning you out.
Did anyone read this bill? I have, if you want it, let me know.
Checkitout: How many of your own rights are you willing to give up to ensure the legality of the people around you? You say in your post that you are okay with the idea that legal, law abiding citizens could be harassed or detained under this law, because it might weed out an illegal immigrant.
^I never said this. I get harassed all the time by cops, and I’m a white boy.
Pretty sure my rights won’t be given up… How far is the American public willing to go with illegal immigration? Until all the legal immigrants and American citizens are gone? Until America is just a country filled with illegal aliens? I mean cmon, I support anyone comin’ here, if they do it the legal way…butt there has to be a point where we gotta do something about all these people dying to get here illegally! This isn’t just about white americans, I don’t want all these people dying and murdering to get here!
And to be honest, I’m kinda over this whole American conspiracy and how they are going to dictate us and take away all our rights…I entertained the idea for a while that there was a shadow govt and all that butt really, I don’t know, even if there is, there’s way more of us, cmon people, we gotta start supporting America. I know it’s not perfect, no country is butt we gotta do something to keep this country a country.
ps. I’m really bad at getting my opinion out on computer, so sorry, heh. And this is all said with respect and I like this healthy debate!
I don’t think anyone posting in this thread would disagree with any of that. Again, who here espoused doing NOTHING about illegal immigration? I don’t know how many times we have to say it, but opposing a bill like this doesn’t equal supporting illegal immigration. It’s not an either/or scenario.
Those of you who seem to be arguing in favor of this AZ law may see it as black-and-white - either we have this law or we do nothing - but I think most of us who are against this law disagree that we implement THIS LAW or “the illegals run amok” or “America is just a country filled with illegal aliens.”
We can probably all agree that immigration should be controlled and legal, that our borders need to be made more secure, and that the rule of law must be respected. But I don’t think that this law in Arizona is the only way to ensure those things happen.
Addressing what someone asked about what benefits non citizens get…
I used to work with a lot and most of them were using other people’s social security cards. They paid taxes and were getting the company insurance. I remember a couple who went back home to visit and came back under another name.
The one person who did get deported was from Australia and he would have never got caught but he always claimed like 9 dependents and wouldn’t pay his taxes.
^^Thanks, Jay. Couldn’t have said it any better. Those who are willing to sacrifice the rights of American citizens in order to prevent illegal immigration or terrorism will someday realize that they have no rights left.
Can’t we talk about bacon? Mmmmm Bacon. I bet illegals work for pig slaughters, or smokers or in some way get bacon to our plates.
Man that is some fascinating world you live in.
Okay, why is it that people are so afraid of immigrants not following US immigration laws? Do pople just love authority so much that you just get off on acquiescing to it whatever chance you get? Do you really feel that our rules against immigration are so important to society?
It’s really not easy to move to the US unless you are wealthy or educated or married to US citizen. If you are an uneducated manual laborer it’s pretty hard to come over hear legally.
Is that what immigration law is for? To protect us from the swarms of unwashed mud people from foreign lands who take our jobs that we are so desperate in these hard times?
No. These people (Mexicans) come over here and do jobs that are unfilled because people won’t do them because they think that since they are white Americans they all deserve to have slaves and harem girls tossing their salads and sit in a big leather chair on Wall S treet and get a trillion dollar bonus on Jesus’ Birthday.
Politicians just feed you these fears about the immigrants ruining your life because it’s easy to manipulate a bunch people by playing off their fears and insecurities concerning people who are different than them. Then people beg them to make laws like this that makes it an acceptable social standard for people to be harassed on the street by police because of the color of their skin, and they cry bloody murder when someone dares question the authority that imposes it. 