Major Scientific Study Says Global Warming Is Natu

this is very interesting stuff.

i will admit that i bought the whole global warming thing hook, line and sinker. it seemed like the thing the “good guys” were trying to enlighten us about, and that the blow-hards like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Bill O’Reilly were trying to dismiss it as left-wing wackery. just as i dismiss almost everything i hear from people like that as nothing but hot air, if i see something on discovery, or learning channel or BBC i pretty much accept it as truth, just because those seem like some very objective media outlets. like i said, i never saw An Inconvenient Truth, but i unthinkingly assumed it was based on sound, sane, scientific theory. not to mention we ARE ruining our planet in a plethora of destructive ways, so i just kind of thought: sure. we’re heating it up as well with all our pollution and CO 2 emmissions. makes sence to me.

so, thanks thnkfst, for shedding some light on the other side of the coin.

I don’t remember saying anything about CNN…

I’m not meaning to po anyone here, just posting my thoughts.

I got an Environmental Science degree back in 1994. We talked about all this stuff back then, worried about global warming, celebrated earth day, cleaned up parks, drove small cars, lived frugally, recycled, all that stuff. And here we are today in the same spot. All that energy for what? I’m tired of all this stuff. We worry about polluting the environment while we go on polluting our bodies and minds… it just makes no sense. Sorry I said anything, there was no point. I should just learn to stay out of internet debates and the like, nothing good ever comes out of it. Light hearted jokes, conversation and occasional advice is fine and even that is pushing it.

Maybe Gene Simmons could headline an ANTI doomsday concert.

ok, i wasn’t done.

wow…i was having a bad day yesterday

let me please try to restore the breeze

GP, you’re welcome to add whatever opinions you want anywhere on here, please don’t stop. i’m sorry to imply you don’t give a shit about the environment. you were getting degrees in that shit when i was still wearing 1 piece pajamas with rubber booties.

TFP, you are definitely making some good points too. i can agree that there is some heavy politic’ing going on with the whole green movement, and that there is a danger of going too far with it all, and that people are going to try (and are already trying) to do just that. i just think it’s even more dangerous to accept that “this is just natural” so “let’s stop investing in green solutions”. and i think it’s ridiculous to think that “my” side is spouting propoganda and the “other” side, (which if accepted by the masses would surely benefit big oil/car/corporate america in general) is not trying to sway things in their favor.

but i think it’s a worthy discussion and sorry i got frustrated.

-> breeze

you mean…The Demon? i’m there!

No worries Dan. This green movement is not new. What is new are politicians like Al Gore instilling fear in the general public that we are sending ourselves to hell in a hand basket every time we go out there and start our cars. We need to keep the gov’t and politics out of this issue. Let man take care of himself and find a way to overcome the shortcomings of combustibles and the like.

For instance, how many of you are for nuclear power? I’ll assume not many but that energy is so much cleaner and more powerful then smog belching coal-fired plants. But everyone is afraid to die in a nuclear explosion or something. So we want clean air but aren’t will to go the extra mile to do it.

Same with drilling the Alaskan oil reserves. We could offset our reliance on foreign oil but no one wants to disturb the land. And again that classic example of the cape cod off-shore wind farm… no one wants it but they want cleaner energy.

Somethings got to give. Instead people would rather whine about it and make fear-based movies and point fingers blaming republicans, terrorists and Mickey Mouse.

Personally I like to live "green"and have been doing so for many years. However I’ve come down and realize I don’t need to be an ascetic about it. I try to live frugal, comfortable and happy… After many years of owning small cars I bought an suv… sucks up the gas but I got it at a good price and its very handy. One thing I do like are the compact florescent bulbs. They contain mercury, which sucks so don’t simply throw them away, but they use much less energy and last 7 years. The mercury should stay put in the bulb as long as its intact and if disposed of properly can keep the harm to the environment at a low level. But you see there is always a trade off. The bulbs use less energy but we bring mercury into our homes…

Remember this news involving Jon Fishman?

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/towns/shelburne/1.htm

Like Carlin said, “…not in MY backyard!”

having Mercury “in your home” in my opinion is NOT worth the risk, what if a child broker one of those light bulbs or somethin?..they don’t save as much energy either, where is that article?, hmmmmm, ahhhh, here it is, read below true believer

Ban the Bulb – If all 4 billion incandescent sockets were filled with CFLs we’d have nearly 50,000 pounds of mercury spread around every single US household

In a few weeks the US Congress is likely to vote to phase out the standard incandescent lightbulb within a decade. The frantic race to see who can best appease the global warming alarmists will claim another victim, the friendly glow of the direct descendant of Thomas Edison’s filament-based light bulb.

Why would the humble lightbulb, a staple commodity that has raised the standard of living throughout the world, be in the bullseye? It was the incandescent electric light bulb that abolished the tyranny of the night. Our 19th and 20th century ancestors believed it one of the greatest gifts of civilization because they had directly experienced life before electric lighting changed everything. In 2002, former Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld briefly reminded us of this blessing when he commented on the satellite imagery revealing the nighttime darkness in North Korea, but other than this brief moment, we seem to have forgotten what we owe to Edison’s first invention.

Ironically, the lowly lightbulb became one of the icons of the New Deal, forever connected with the Rural Electrification Act of 1936. The REA and the TVA enabled cheap electric power to be available everywhere, even on the remotest farms and ranches. And a substantial part of the American people fell in love with big government because it brought this fruit of civilization, the rollback of the night, to all Americans.

But today, more than anything else, the humble lightbulb is altogether another sort of convenient symbol for big government-a technology dinosaur, perpetrator of evil crimes against the planet. Stopping the wasteful use of kilowatts by American households in the war on greenhouse gases is the new battle cry of the lovers of governmental control over our lives.

There are about 4 billion conventional screw-in light bulb sockets all across America; the vast majority are in homes and apartments. Incandescent light bulbs are in most of these sockets, with some 2 billion or more replaced every year. It is estimated at least $15 billion of electricity is consumed by these inefficient anachronisms, and that by replacing them with more energy efficient types of lightbulbs-primarily post-modern compact fluorescents–that $15 billion could be cut in half.

We are told that as kilowatts could be reduced, we would need fewer nasty coal-fired power generating plants, while winning a major battle against global warming with little pain and even less effort. Everybody wins!

Well, not exactly. Once again, a nice-sounding theory overlooks significant details of the practical outcomes.

Energy conservation lobbyists conveniently overlook the obvious fact that household lightbulbs are primarily used at night-exactly opposite the time of day in which utilities experience peak load demands for daytime heating, air conditioning and commercial lighting. Peak load shedding is what is most necessary for taking coal fired power plants out of commission.

Reducing nighttime lightbulb consumption of kwhs will do almost nothing to shave peak demand. Moreover, with non-peak kwhs reduced at night, utilities will now have fewer revenues on which to earn a return on their invested capital. Utilities must build up their physical plant to meet the peaks, and the capital to finance that equipment has to be paid for 24 hours a day. Thus, utilities will have to raise rates on the remainder of the kwhs we use for everything else, from washing machines to hair dryers to computers.

Household power used by lightbulbs is actually dwarfed these days by major appliances and high tech consumer electronics- such as wide screen TVs, computers and video games along with internet servers, the biggest energy hogs besides cars and trucks.

And since the new CFLs produce inferior light compared to incandescents, we’ll need more of them to read, shave, comb our hair and brush our teeth. Assuming literacy and personal hygiene are still hallmarks of civilized life after the global warming alarmists are done with their crusade to rid us of the blessings of the evil civilization that rapes Mother Gaia.

By banning the incandescent lightbulb Congress will forcibly remove a staple commodity from the marketplace, replacing it with products that are far more expensive, less reliable and more hazardous, notably the much ballyhooed compact fluorescent lightbulb (CFL).

CFL lightbulbs have been around for well over a decade. Only recently have they come in enough varieties and flavors to capture about 10% of the available sockets. But they are still at least 5 times more expensive than regular incandescents, which if replaced in their entirety would cost consumers an extra $4 to 5 billion at the cash register. No doubt millions of Americans will enthusiastically embrace this new technology and be willing to pay extra to get it.

But millions more will not fare so well. This ban will be a tax on poor people and the silent majority-retirees on fixed incomes, single working parents, low wage earners working double shifts or two jobs along with the average Joes and Marys who live each week paycheck-to-paycheck. They don’t have cable TV to watch the Home and Garden channel, and can’t afford to replace their functional if drab table lamp fixtures, much less employ a green ideology-toting residential lighting designer.

For these Americans, burdens come in large packages. Relief arrives less often, and then in small envelopes, such as reduced inflationary pressures on staple commodities like lightbulbs and all the necessities of life purchased at low prices from Wal-Mart. Of course Wal-Mart is yet another enemy of the trendy affluent class that wants to dictate how the rest of us lead our lives.

And guess where the extra purchase prices for these CFLs will wind up? In the pockets of Chinese manufacturers, because not a single CFL is produced in the US.

And it gets worse. As Chinese manufacturers add enough manufacturing capacity to produce ten times as many CFLs , they will need several new coal-fired power plants to run the new factories. This comes on top of the already breathtaking pace today of construction in coal fired electric power plants in China - at a clip of one new plant every week. Don’t even think about asking about what kind of pollution control will be operating on those Chinese plants.

A tax on poor people in the US so the Chinese can add more coal fired power plants. Now there’s a bright idea.

There’s even more to this story: one more dirty little secret that the greens won’t tell you about.

CFLs contain mercury. You didn’t know that? Just a drop you say? How about up to 5 milligrams per lightbulb. If all 4 billion incandescent sockets were filled with CFLs we’d have 20 billion milligrams of mercury spread around every single US household. By the way, 20 billion milligrams is nearly 50,000 pounds.

That 50,000 pounds of mercury amongst 300 million people, if indiscriminately thrown away, will eventually find its way to your favorite landfill and public drinking water supply. Knock over a table lamp and shatter a CFL in your house, and you have a toxic waste situation on your hands right in the living room, bedroom or dining room.

On the other hand, at least half of all mercury emissions from coal fired power plants currently is captured by scrubbers, and clean coal technologies promise to eliminate 2/3rds of what remains. Not so for CFLs-- which can’t operate without mercury.

So there you have it. Congress will soon enact legislation to impose a tax on poor people that will directly pass to Chinese companies, contribute to lower literacy and less personal hygiene while making industrial policy that will increase greenhouse gas emissions worldwide and spread a hazardous heavy metal into the environment.

Ban the bulb is a no-brainer , only this time the empty-headed variety.

agreed, my only qualm left is the fact that all the mainstream media coverage is behind the PRO DOOMSDAY SCENARIO and one child policy and global tax for carbon yada yada, without one word being said about “my” side

One more itsy tinsy bitsy article on the “green” lightbulb, pretty please

read below

Why ‘green’ lightbulbs aren’t the answer to global warming

CHRISTOPHER BOOKER
UK Daily Mail
Tuesday, March 13, 2007

They have to be left on all the time, they’re made from banned toxins and they won’t work in half your household fittings. Yet Europe (and Gordon Brown) says ‘green’ lightbulbs must replace all our old ones.

Every day now we are being deluged with news of the latest proposals from our politicians about how to save the planet from global warming. We must have ‘a new world order’ to combat climate change, Gordon Brown proclaimed yesterday. We must have strict ‘green’ limits on air travel, proposes David Cameron, so that no one can afford to take more than one flight a year.

A fifth of all our energy must be ‘green’ by 2020, says the EU, even though there is no chance of such an absurd target being met. We must have ‘green’ homes, ‘green’ cars, ‘green’ fuel, even microchips in our rubbish bins to enforce ‘green’ waste disposal.

Have these politicians any longer got the faintest idea what they are talking about? Do they actually look at the hard, practical facts before they rush to compete with each other in this mad musical-chairs of gesture politics?

Take just one instance of this hysteria now sweeping our political class off its feet: that which was bannered across the Daily Mail’s front page on Saturday in the headline ‘EU switches off our old lightbulbs’.

This was the news that, as part of its latest package of planet-saving measures, the EU plans, within two years, to ban the sale of those traditional incandescent lightbulbs we all take for granted in our homes. Gordon Brown followed suit yesterday, saying he wanted them phased out in Britain by 2011.

No doubt the heads of government who took this decision (following the lead of Fidel Castro’s dictatorship in Cuba) purred with selfcongratulation at striking such a daring blow against global warming.

After all, these ‘compact fluorescent bulbs’ (or CFLs), to which they want us all to switch, use supposedly only a fifth of the energy needed by the familiar tungsten-filament bulbs now to be made illegal.

Among the first to congratulate the EU’s leaders was UK Green MEP Caroline Lucas, who claimed that ‘banning old-fashioned lightbulbs across the EU would cut carbon emissions by around 20 million tonnes per year and save between e5 million and e8million per year in domestic fuel bills’.

Who could argue? Certainly one lot of people far from impressed by the EU’s decision are all those electrical engineers who have been clutching their heads in disbelief. Did those politicians, they wondered, actually take any expert advice before indulging in this latest planet- saving gesture?

In fact, the virtues of these ‘low-energy’ bulbs are nothing like so wonderful as naive enthusiasts like Ms Lucas imagine them to be. Indeed in many ways, the experts warn, by banning incandescent bulbs altogether, the EU may have committed itself to an appallingly costly blunder.

It is a decision that will have a far greater impact on all our lives than most people are yet aware, presenting the UK alone with a bill which, on our Government’s own figures, could be

triple post!! , oh no, I’m banned again probably…

Whatever happened to “save the rainforests”??

^that died with the Dead.

thanks for the info thnkfst.

::gets rid of CFLS::

thnkfrstpal is one the strangest people on this board besides neck. and will.

But Neck and myself are weird together.

man i’m glad i’m not weird. cuz weird people are, like, weird, maaaan.

welp, time to play with the Q-tips! yaaaaaaaay!!!

somebody sticky this thread.

its our claim to fame now.

thnkfstpal SAVED THE WORLD!

RIGHT HERE!

Top 10 news story of 2007

shoulda been anyway

While it is easy to find scientists who disagree with the scientific consensus on global warming, the vast majority of them agree that it is happening and it is our fault.

http://royalsociety.org/displaypagedoc.asp?id=20742

Top 10 news story? I expect studies like this will be published every single year for the next half century - However, not until the scientific consensus shifts will it actually be newsworthy.

And quoting the Daily Mail? - well regarded in this country as a reprehensible right-wing hate rag.

nice link, real slick looking…was that passed out at your establishment/elite funded college? who said it isn’t happening or wasn’t real?, WHAT WE ARE SAYING IS IT’S NATURAL, PART OF A CYCLE. Where did YOU learn about global warming? from TV?, friends?, hearsay? Al Gore? ELITE SCIENTISTS WHO GO TO ALL THE FUNDRAISING PARTIES? I bet, I didn’t only quote the Daily Mail. How about FACT: let’s tango

The average rate of warming of 0.1 to 0. 2 degrees Celsius per decade recorded by satellites during the late 20th century falls within known natural rates of warming and cooling over the last 10,000 years.

z Leading scientists, including some senior IPCC representatives, acknowledge that today’s computer models cannot predict climate. Consistent with this, and despite computer projections of temperature rises, there has been no net global warming since 1998. That the current temperature plateau follows a late 20th-century period of warming is consistent with the continuation today of natural multi-decadal or millennial climate cycling.

In stark contrast to the often repeated assertion that the science of climate change is “settled,” significant new peer-reviewed research has cast even more doubt on the hypothesis of dangerous human-caused global warming. But because IPCC working groups were generally instructed (see http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/docs/ wg1_timetable_2006-08-14.pdf) to consider work published only through May, 2005, these important findings are not included in their reports; i.e., the IPCC assessment reports are already materially outdated.

don’t like that one?

easy to find scientists who disagree with the scientific consensus? THAT MEANS IT’S NOT A CONSENSUS (Achieving consensus requires serious treatment of every group member’s considered opinion) Trust me, i have seriously considered your global warming theory and used to believe that we were doomed by the polar ice caps melting FOREVER. Then I woke up. This is the real world not “The Day After Tomorrow”, seriously though. They will not continue to MELT FOREVER. jeez. where’s bigfoot when you need’em?