^From what I understand with my limited knowledge Islam began around 600. The prophet Mohammad used an army and took over much of Arabia and brought together many different tribes and peoples and the region prospered. I don’t know if there has been violence between Islamic sects over the years as much as the muslims trying to convert people to Islam… which continues today. Course today we see much violence between sects as well.
How is the war achieving stability? Well the US ousted a dictator and is now trying to help a fledgling gov’t get its act together so there can be a free society. With this free society terrorists will not have a place to train and if Iraqs neighbors join together with Iraq in peace and cut off funding to terrorists then maybe these jihad groups will not have the resources and support to maintian their radical cause. Then maybe the world can be rid of the threat and be a safer place.
I don’t need to spell this out, you already know this. Fact is no good person likes war or death or violence but sometimes it takes force to rid the world of certain evils. Look at Hitler and the Germans. If everyone took this “no war” attitude we’d all be speaking german right now no?
… and sometimes, even with force, its not enough and evil gets the upperhand from time to time.
^Well thanks for the compliment but I’m not that smart… average at best.
I really don’t know the Islamic history and background. Maybe we should do some more research? It would help our dialogue and understanding. Where’s the cliff notes “The history of Islam in the Middle East” when you need it. Tho your analysis is helpful. What it seems to come down to is every man or sect for themselves. Its a barbaric attitude to say the least.
“One thing that most of these groups seem to have in common is that they would rather fight until they die than coexist with each other.”
That seems to be the sticking point. The utter inflexibilty of their ideology. Their resistance to assimulation. My way or the highway. This is why I think “talking it out” is not a vilable option at this point. I’m not saying we go the other extreme and wipe them out but some force will be needed to keep them under control. Violence is their language you see? Thats what they understand.
As far as the “how” in Iraq- perhaps Bush isn’t going about it properly but I do feel he grasps what is at stake unlike most of congress and most the American public. (Much of congress is swayed by political ambition and not what is the right thing to do for fear of losing office. Much the public is not using intelligence but acting like scared sheep.) Basically when dealing with some form of tyranny one tries different levels of action. In the early stages ones uses kind words like “please stop doing that” and when that doesn’t work then you ask again but a little more forcefully- “Why are you doing that? Stop it, that is not right.” Then one might try to befriend the aggressor or perhaps gather others to show some force and tell them to stop. In the end when all else fails an aggressor needs to be subjugated and even eliminated if need be. This is where we are at with the terrorists. The best we can do, I feel, is subjugation. Rendering them powerless. Taking away their funds, training grounds and supporters… then constant viligence to see they do not gain power again. We cannot do that over here. The Middle Eastern countries need act as the subjugators. They need to unite and have no tolerance with regard to terrorists. Saddam would never have done that. And you see the fight the terrorists are putting up in Iraq, they know they could lose their support.
He may or may not grasp the complexities. He may know what to do but be unable to put it into motion. (Political obstacles etc.) The complexities could be ever changing (I sight Gamehenge on this one… who couldv’e predicted Aaron Wolfe’s betrayal?) The situation is complex on all fronts.
The weakness I think the enemy is exploiting is the fact that the Americans can’t take the bloody violence. Terrorism is their biggest weapon and they are using it to wear down our resolve. The political poll numbers prove it over the years. The majority was in favor early on but now look… very few stand behind the war effort… even tho nothing has really changed except it turning out to be harder to win this fight than originally expected. We lost our resolve, we have no true grit, when the going gets tough the tough votes in a new congress and complains and wants to run?
This has been the enemys plan from the beginning. Again, Saddam said it himself when he was caught “The Americans can’t take the blood.” and as he was being sentenced to death he encouraged the terrorists to keep up the bloody attacks.
“He may or may not grasp the complexities.”?
Are you serious?
He didn’t even know the difference between Shia and Sunni Muslims goldphish!
That’s like saying you want to play football and don’t know the difference between offense and defense for fucks sake.
“He may know what to do but be unable to put it into motion.” (Political obstacles etc.)
He doesn’t even know what to do here in America let alone halfway across the world.
And I tell you what, I’m getting tired of you saying stuff like:
“We lost our resolve, we have no true grit, when the going gets tough the tough votes in a new congress and complains and wants to run?”
I think there is an opening at Fox News for you.
and we all know that when something bad happens in this mess the only thing to say that won’t get us hurt is
“Its good Bush did that”
Oh well. Look I don’t have the answers and I’m calling it like I see it. I very well can be wrong on many points but I try to not let my bias color my sensibilities. Bush is not infallible, never said he was. I just think he’s trying.
As far as congress, what is their solution to things once they pull all the troops? Pulling the troops will not end the war on terrorism and will not all of a sudden create stability in Iraq.
If there is another way to all this I’d love to hear it. I hope all this can be resolved another way… I’d love to eat a slice of humble pie.
It’s mess over there.
Plain and simple.
As for congress, they work for like 8 months and then do nothing but try and get re-elected.
Congress does what the lobbyists want, plain and simple.
Not what the people want.
I’ve said it before, those who live in the middle east have have been fighting each other over small pieces of desert forever.
It’s insane.
I just hate turning on the news and seeing Americans trying to referee a civil war and help them, only to get blowed up, shot, and AND NOW KIDNAPPED AND MOST LIKELY BEHEADED.
We are trying to help and they don’t want it.
Screw them.
I want them home and nothing more will satisfy me.
*edit
Goldphish, I’m just fed up.
I don’t want to make it seem that I’m mad at you or anything.
I really like talking with you about this.
I just don’t see why we’re there anymore.
This Iraq war has nothing to do with fighting terrorism anymore.
Gamecat, thats fine you’re fed up and angry with the situation. Still, throwing your arms up in the air about it solves nothing. It still takes thought and deliberation to understand the situation and find a possible resolution. It just easy to end up with a headache after thinking about this stuff.
Too many people are quick to make judgement based on emotions and bias… and even worse, jumping on the bandwagon… ya know the kind, the all-of-a-sudden Red Sox fan b/c they won the World Series. The sudden Bush-hater b/c their neighbor hates Bush. We don’t like to see war, death and blood so we blame someone and the easiest target is Bush and we end up with nonsense posts like ICCs… which is pretty damn funny btw.
Bhuji has a very level headed approach to this matter and tend to agree with much of what he says but what may be different is I have given into the idea that violence is sometimes necessary to subdue evil. Again what I feel needs to be done and what I think they are trying to do is cut off all support for this so-called jihad, cut the head off the beast. As long as there are radical gov’ts and wealthy supporters in the Middle East there will be a major threat of another 9-11.
“If things don’t get better, when do we leave?”
I guess the answer nobody wants to hear is we don’t leave till things get better. Who has more resolve the terrorists or the US?
there has to be some kind of sketchy behind the back of the people corrupt fortune making ulterior motive behind this other than “bringing freedom and democracy to the people of Iraq”
basically if they were looking to stabilize a situation for moral reasons and not profit from it, they would be sending people into Darfur right now; a place that desperately needs some kind of help. All America has done in Iraq has been to tear it down with no agenda of making it any better and has in the process just made matters a little worse. Darfur really needs someone to step in and counter the Sudanese Janjaweed militia that’s wiping out entire villages in Darfur and Rwanda constantly for the past 3 years and nobody’s done shit about it except make a movie. BUT, there’s no oil in Darfur, nor is there any business for our courageous leaders to exploit upon helping the people so it gets swept under the rug and all of a sudden Iraq is the biggest problem in the world. Not the Darfur genocide, not the nuclear holocaust waiting to happen in Korea, not the terrorist underground in Afghanistan, but Iraq. I wonder why.
Fuck this war.
Good ole’ Selassie… threading the needle, sewing together two completely different threads (war & Bush and the VT rampage) and situations (school shootings and international terrorism) all to make me look like I contradict myself so people discredit my arguments.
Better yet dude why don’t you say what you think and join the conversation like Jawbone just did?
This isn’t about morality Jawbone. Its about stopping an enemy who is bent on destroying the western way of life… all b/c we are not Muslim. These people want to kill you and me simply b/c we are not Muslim.
Think about it. Why did these people fly planes into the WTC killing 3500+? They wish to take down western society. Why? We are free to think and act as we wish. We have sexy magazines. Women are free and equal to men. This goes against their beliefs.
However the point is well taken that we are far too dependent on foreign oil. Part of the problem is all the Dems don’t want us drilling Alaska for our own oil and then say were too dependent on foreign oil. Cripes, ya can’t have it both ways. Now were increasing Ethanol production to supplement fuel costs and thats causing a shortage of corn which raises the prices of feed and anything corn so all our food prices are increasing.
um…that wasn’t Iraq. That’s those terrorist underground groups in Afghanistan that i mentioned. Iraq was just an easier target at the time and didn’t (and still dosen’t) make any sense to anybody with half of a brain. Wanting to destroy western culture? Iraq? When? How about setting up military bases on muslim holy land and taking out cities and replacing them with WalMarts? That’s not the same thing?
^Those “underground” groups are not so underground. The Tailban fully supported al quiada and had no problem allowing them to train on their soil. In a court of law they’d be tried as an accomplice. The Taliban were terrible.
Read page 11 for more on Saddam and how I think he and Iraq ties into all this.
I’m out for now peeps… flame me while I’m gone! ;D
that’s an understatement.
^JB could you explain yourself a little more?
Great post Bhuji. The thing is Bush set in motion this current cycle. Soon his cycle will end for good or ill. As I stated some 12 pages back I am for letting this cycle complete itself, for seeing it thru. As for the future I do see what you say that our troops can’t stay indefinetly, that our resources will run out. Perhaps, by the time Bush leaves office, there will be enough change in the region to make a difference.
I have to read thru your post again to make more comment but one of the problems with Muslims… or atleast the harder line Muslims, is they don’t assimulate with other cultures or countries. Maybe this is what JB is talking about as far as morality. We are all beneath Muslims and immoral because we are not Muslim. However I don’t feel we are trying to place our morality on them… we just don’t want them to fly planes into our bulidings and impose their religon on US, we wish to remain free to think and act and read sexy magazines 
i don’t think i need to. You said that this war is not about morality and i whole heartedly agreed. There are no morals involved in this war. Nobody is being saved. It is all based on the political agendas of about 3% of the people involved and most of the victims have nothing to do with any disputes, reasoning and certainly not the benefits of this entire catastrophe.
the only people benefiting are the people that aren’t over there fighting. That means that thousands of human lives, American and otherwise, are being thrown around like pawns in a chess game and the only thing done to compensate is passing out little yellow ribbon magnets and distracting the American public with constant news coverage of Paris Hilton being hammered while the people moving the chess pieces around are just getting fatter and fatter off all the damage they’ve caused.
Therefore, there is no morality to be seen here. If there was any morality to exist in this, we probably wouldn’t be talking about it because it probably wouldn’t be going down like it is.
sorry i couldn’t resist.
i’m not looking to get into this one. looks more like dueling diatribes than a conversation.
carry on.
Good point.